Gfci Under Kitchen Sink

Hi all, this is my first post, so...my kitchen was just renovated and the electrical outlets are on the walls and I wanted them in plugmold under the cabinet. Why didn't it happen?  Long story, but I'm doing it myself now.  The electrical receptacles are on 2 separate circuits with a gfci receptacle on each and neither circuit has a receptacle outside the kitchen where I can put the gfci's, so I'm putting gfci breakers in the panel instead. I've run into a different problem on each circuit that'd like some advice on.



Circuit 1: this is a 20 amp circuit.  I have to plug this circuit's neutral wire into the gfci breaker, but I couldn't see which neutral wire matched the hot wire (buried in mess of wires) and I don't have a continuity tester so I just pulled one neutral at a time (tedious) until the circuit failed, but it never failed. So I did this again for every neutral...same result. This circuit shares a few boxes with other circuits so I'm wondering if the neutrals on different circuits are tied together somewhere, and if so I'm pretty sure, but not completely, that that's not going to work with the gfci breaker.  So I didn't install that gfci breaker since I'm not confident it would actually gfci (yep i verbified gfci).  What do you think?



Circuit 2:  this is a 20 amp circuit.  This circuit currently has the refrigerator, gas stove and range hood, and then a gfci in front of 3 electrical receptacles, which already sounds bad since I thought the kitchen receptacles required 2 dedicated circuits. I replaced that breaker with no problem, but it tripped after a few minutes and continued to trip every few minutes. I haven't changed anything else on that circuit yet and it's never tripped before, but now it is, so I put the old breaker back for now. The current gfci receptacle is only protecting the 3 outlets since the appliances are ahead of it. I know you wouldn't normally want the appliances gfci protected, so do you think the refrigerator motor may be a problem?  Do I need the appliances on a separate circuit?  What would you suggest I do?



Thanks, and if you're wondering "why all the effort?", it's partly because I'm meddlesome, partly because I'm bored, and partly because the backsplash tile is to be on showcase, not the electrical receptacles.
      

That means it applies to the entire country

Permits & Inspections are usually required for ALL electric work

It may not be legal for you to do your own work, Check with your local Building Dept

This thread will be added onto as a form of "Cliff Notes" for the NEC

If there is something that needs to be corrected, or if you wish to add to this thread; please let us know



The NEC is available online, you may have to sign up for an account to view it:

http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/br...NFPASTD/7008SB

(may not be working)



Draft Version:

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF...08ROPDraft.pdf 



Also a link to State specific NEC/Building codes:

http://bulk.resource.org/codes.gov/



New Code book comes out every 3 years, it is not always fully accepted by States & sometimes not until 1-2 years later

Local codes can vary from the NEC



210.23 An individual branch circuit shall be permitted to supply any load for which it is rated (some think you can only load to 80%)



210.50 Required Branch circuits

14g wire is rated for 15a, 12g wire is rated for 20a

15a outlets ONLY on a 15a circuit

15a/20a are allowed on a 20a circuit

A single 15a receptacle is not allowed on a 20a circuit

AFCI protection is required almost every where under NEC 2008

Exceptions are GFCI required: bathrooms, kitchens, laundry (GFCI if sink within 6' of receptacle), garage & outside circuits



Bathroom requires a dedicated 20a GFCI protected circuit that can serve outlets in multiple bathrooms

OR

Outlets & Lights in One bathroom



Kitchen requires 2 dedicated 20a GFCI protected circuits for counter (no lights)



Laundry area requires a dedicated 20a GFCI protected circuit

.

.
      

My wife and I are doing some minor kitchen remodeling in a few months (new sink, countertops, backsplash, adding disposal).  I was looking at the electric to see what I was in for.  There is currently a switch located where you would locate the switch for a disposal... but it shuts off the dishwasher.  WHAT?  WHY?



So I look into the dishwasher circuit.  20a at the panel, wires run in conduit to the switch location.  Out of the switch box comes 14/2 NM-B (WHAT, undersized!) comes out under the drywall and over to the junction box on the dishwasher.



So, what do you guys see as the solution here?  I was thinking to run a new 20a circuit, with 12 gauge THHN from the panel to the switch box, then splice that to a new piece of 12/2 NM-B to the dishwasher.  Question: can the NM-B just lay behind the dishwasher like that?  Should it be BX? 



The 14/2 NM-B would be removed and 12/2 run from the switch to a new outlet under the sink for the disposal.  So, I would end up with 2x 20a circuits: one for disposal, one for dishwasher.



Does this sound like a solid plan?
      

I completed my whole house rewire last Fall (took 2 years and severely tested my wife's patience). I read 5 wiring books in the early stages but read Rex Cauldwell's Wiring a House with his above code suggestions near the end of the project and now im obsessing about some of the stuff I didnt do. What do you guys think of some of the suggestions, specifically,



1. Driving 8 ground rods and the wire must be continuous (I drove 4 but the #6 copper wire from the panel to rod 1 is 1 wire and the #6 wire from rod 1 through rod 4 is another wire but both are properly clampled to rod 1 with an acord clamp). Funny, even with 4 rods there is almost no current through the rods versus 2-3 amps through the traditional cold water pipe ground



2. 1 circuit for each duplex receptacle in bathrooms. Since I have a quad in each of the batchrooms, that would be 4 circuits instead of 1 (code allows an unlimited number of bathroom receptacles on one circuit which does seem odd)



3. Nothing shared with kitchen counter receptacles (ie kitchen wall and dining room on their own)



4. Dedicated circuits for everything - I added dedicted circuit for fridge, microwave and dishwasher/disposer, but did not separate the dishwasher disposer onto 2 circuits. There used to be what I called "Circuit X" which did kitchen counter, microwave, dishwasher, disposer, fridge, 2 kitchen counter outlets, dining room and 1 outside outlet. Wife frequently blew that one. Circuit X was divided into at least 5 circuits during the rewire



5. No switch loops - did 5 of these to save on carpentry/avoid certain box fill problems. Now 2011 code says no switch loops without a neutral. Oops?



Just wondering what you guys think.
      

We are just beginning to start with our kitchen remodel. Today, I mapped out all the circuits and this is what I found.



Circuit # 7 - 20 amp circuit to 1 back splash outlet then to 3 kitchen wall outlets, then to a closet outlet and closet ceiling light and then to a side  porch light!



Circuit # 8 - 20 amp to Dishwasher and Disposal



Circuit # 9 - 20 amp circuit to microwave and kitchen ceiling lights. 2 patio recessed lights and dining room ceiling light.



Circuit # 12 - 20 amp circuit to another back splash outlet then to 2 dining room wall outlets.



Circuit # 14 - 20 amp to Refrigerator only



Circuit # 18 - 15 amp to GFCI outlet in garage then that feeds 3 outlets for 3 bathroom outlets and 1 outside patio outlet.



I going to have to add 1 more back splash outlet due to increase in counter space. I'll put the microwave on a dedicated circuit. So I need 2 additional breakers but I only have 1 blank spot in the breaker panel. I guess I can add one of those slim tandem breakers.



So my question, is it ok to have additional wall outlets on the same circuit as a back splash outlet?  If it's ok I'll lighten up circuit # 7 by putting some of those wall outlets on the additional back splash outlet.

Oh, I have 2 20 amp circuits I did not get identified yet! I'll get to those tomorrow.



thanks!
      

Hi all,



I have two outdoor receptacles that are wired into a junction box in the crawlspace under my house. They are actually ran into a spare bedroom's circuit...therefore not gfi protected.  There is a switch above the access (indoors) to the crawlspace that powers these outlets and also light that runs off of the junction point also.



Would I be able to replace the switch with a dead front gfci switch to get these outlets protected. Would doing this be safe and up to code?



Would I be better off undoing all of the previous owner's work and putting these on a dedicated gfci circuit?



House was built in '87 and I am in the US.
      

We just got a used hot tub.  It ran fine where we purchased it but since we got it home, it has not run.  We installed a new breaker for the hot tub and an GFCI outlet outside.  The hot tub inself has a GFCI installed on it.  If we plug it into the GFCI outlet it runs for a few seconds and either trips the circuit inside or the hot tub.  Is it necessary to have a GFCI outlet outisde if the hot tub has one?  We are thinking that this may be our problem..redundancy.  Can we install a regular outlet outside instead of the GFCI outlet?  When we plug it into a regular outlet it runs.  We want to make sure that this is safe before proceeding.
      

I've see the drawing for lights/chandelier over bath tub (in forum) but I think this refers to USA. See drawing. #3 is gfi with 1, 2, 9, 4 being tapped off 3. # 3 would be dedicated from panel at 15 amps. #5, 6, 7, 8, 10 would be another 15 amp dedicated 15 amp non gfi.



Questions: A) Can I have chandelier over bathtub?

B) Are switches too close to bathtub? If yes can switch be outside the bathroom

C) Because only switch 4 is gfi protected can I still use a 3 gang box?





D) Kitchen: Any rules regarding distance from sink for a non gfi switch controlling lighting?





Input regarding Ontario electrical code refering to above would be appreciated.



I have uploaded a compressed drawing of bathroom.



Jan

janluthe@hotmail.com
      

i will have one of those fridges that have water supply for drinking water filtration and ice and the valve for that will be real close to the power outlet.  my question is, does the outlet then need to be GFCI considering that it is that close but still it will never be wet because of the hose connecting it is sealed closed ?
      

I am thinking of purchasing a WineKoolr used but after looking at the manual online it states that it must be plugged into a "Dedicated separately fused, grounded, 15 amp 100-120v line." The price I can get this at is awesome, but I live in apartment and am not sure, but think I only have 1 dedicated line at all, for the fridge. The previous owners said they just had it plugged into a normal outlet fine, but I want to know if it is a serious issue to do this? I really want a nice cooler for my beer cellar since I have no actual basement, so I am really hoping I can make this work in my home. Thanks for any help!





*Someone asked me on another forum what breakers I have for where I want to install it, and its in my second bedroom.  The breaker for those outlets is a 15A.  They also said that it probably says that in the manual to cover themselves legally but I should likely be just fine.





**

Well I turned off the breakers until I found which was for the outlets in the spare room.  As far as I can tell, the only things on this circuit are the spare bedroom outlets (not the lights), and 1 outlet in the hallway.  Nothing is plugged into any of these and its a 20A circuit.