200 Amp Panel

Appreciate any help with this.



Background:



- new to us old house, got three quotes for an upgrade to 200A service plus addition of three new circuits in conduit with receptacles (Chicago area, conduit is code in just about every town around, I have no issue with that);



- existing service to house was overhead, opted to keep it overhead and not bury it;



- the quote says, exactly: "Installation of a 200 amp 240 volt overhead electric service complete with riser, outdoor meter socket with a 200 amp disconnect, 40 position circuit breaker type distribution panel..." etc.;



I understood from discussing the work with the contractor we chose that install overhead service meant to include the work and materials needed to upgrade the line coming from the pole at the alley to the house to handle 200A capacity; paid 50% down on quote;



- the morning the boss and tech show up for the work, boss says we already have a 200A overhead, which I seem to recall the home inspector mentioning months ago before the closing (makes sense because the overhead runs to a single room addition put on several years ago), but boss was the guy who came to the house to quote the job in the first place, didn't mention anything about the existing overhead capacity at the time;



- the work gets done, seems fine; tech left without going over anything with us but whatever.



Final bill matches the quote to the dollar. There is no indication that there were any surprises during the work.



Since the quote says installation of overhead service and they didn't need to replace the overhead lines from the pole I think the final bill should be lower than the quote. The distance from the pole to the riser is about 40 feet.



Should I expect from the wording in the quote that the final bill should be lower than the quote because they didn't have to touch the existing overhead?



About how much lower?



We didn't go with the lowest quote, didn't beat him up on price and the total bill is quite a pretty penny, so I think he would be making good money either way.



I know there is no way for someone to tell me an exact dollar figure here based on a blog post, but I'd like to get some kind of idea so I can start my conversation about the final bill.



Thanks for any help out there.
      

I'm having quite the time finding an electrician who will quote this.  Just about all of them say that what I need is to upgrade my main panel but I want to install a new main panel that is a part of the meter base outside and make my current 100A panel a sub.   Maybe you people can tell me why nobody seems to want to do this.  Here are a few shots of the existing meter (note what is apparently a 60A base here)






and a shot of the conduit headed underground.  Like most homes built during this era, the conduit makes a right turn underground to enter through the cinderblock, ending up coming into the back of the main panel.  This conduit encloses a 4 wire feed. edit: no, actually it is only a 3 wire feed which is a problem if I want to convert the original main panel a sub.






Here's the existing panel.  It's a 60's era Square-D split panel with a 30 amp sub panel for the finished basement.  Those are low voltage wires to circuit taps for my home energy monitoring system btw.






The reason I don't want to upgrade this panel are as follows:

We won't be expanding the electrical west of this panel any more.  All planned expansion (240v car charger in Garage, planned 3 season room with grid tie Solar on the roof) will be to the east.


Upgrading the panel will require major surgery to the walls.  Due to the way the original basement is engineered there, the walls have an intricate stud pattern behind the existing panel.  I'd pretty much have to rip out a 4' section and redo it to make the access large enough to handle a 200A panel.


Adding additional circuits to an upgraded panel will require an act of God due to the finished basement construction.  There are no raceways for additional circuits.






Based on this, my thoughts were to create a new 200A main panel outside based on something like the GE model TSM420CSCUP loadcenter.  Here's a shot of this panel:






This particular panel has room for three 2-pole breakers in addition to the 200A mains.  I'd add a 100A 2-pole breaker for the existing panel, with the other two reserved for the garage/solar expansions.



The issue with the contractors who have quoted the job appears to be the conduit going to the existing panel.  I'm not sure what's wrong with it but it is apparently not compliant with current code.  Obviously the bonding needs to change, new grounding electrodes need to be driven, and a water pipe ground needs to be established to the new main panel, but what else is required?



I'd like to throughly research all the code considerations here so I can approach a contractor from a more knowledgable perspective then determine the best way to perform this upgrade.  Due to POCO coordination and the need to cut household power for the duration of the job, I have no desire to DIY this one...



So what exactly is wrong with the conduit running from the existing meter base to the existing load center?  Why is everybody telling me that I can't do essentially what I've described above?  What are the relevant code sections that will apply to this job?  Should I be chatting with my AHJ about local considerations now or should I wait until I have the code requirements down pat (assuming the latter here)?
      

I have read and searched a bunch on wire size and I wondered if you guys could confirm that #2/0 copper is fine to run from the meter base to the panel.  Upgrading to 200 amp service, 200 amp base and 200 amp panel.  From what I gather its ok for service wires at 200 amps, but in other applications its rated for less.  For what its worth, the poco is running #4/0 to the the meter for the new service.
      

My existing service entrance consists of an external Meter can mounted on the outside of the garage wall directly behind a SD Main Breaker Panel (MBP) with a 150 amp main breaker.  In order to support upgrades, I am installing a second MBP (200 amp) inside the garage in the wall cavity right next to the existing panel.



Local code requires that the upgraded Meter can be purchased from the City Utility.  I have already confirmed with the local inspector that either 4/0 Al or 2/0 Cu SE cable are acceptable for both the existing and new MBP.



My question is what is the code requirement for getting the 3 SE cables run from the dual lugs to the new panel?  Can those conductors run into the same wall cavity where the existing panel is installed?  If so, I'm certain they can't go through the same conduit nipple that connects the back of the meter can to the existing MBP.  Can they route in behind/above/below the existing panel and through a hole in the wall stud to gain access to the adjacent stud bay to get to the new panel?  If not, do they need to be routed out of the meter can on the external wall in conduit over to the next stud bay and then enter the wall there to gain access to the new panel?  If external conduit is required I would expect it must be metallic as opposed to PVC.



Best Regards,



Ted
      

In a large bunkhouse we need to add a second range, water heater, and kitchen outlets.  The existing panel is 125 AMP (with breaker), and don't want to redo entire panel.  A consultant said to install a 200 AMP drop, with a panel to handle the additional load.  Would you then feed each of the panels from that drop as main panels, or use a new 200 AMP panel as the main, and the 125 as a sub-panel from that?  I assume in either instance, the grounding would be done as a 200 AMP service.  Just realized if each was a main panel, the new one couldn't exceed 75 Amps, or total would be over 200.  Any other ideas appreciated.
      

I have 200 amp service with a 50 amp service tap to the garage and another 50 amp tap to a small service panel for extra circuits. I have a 70 amp draw for a tankless water heater, 30 amp draw for the air conditioner, a 40 amp draw for the cooktop and a 40 amp draw for a double oven. I want to add another tankless water heater about 50 feet from the 200 amp panel. The new water heater requires three 50 amp breakers. How do I get the necessary service to the new water heater?
      

I am installing central air conditioner in our 80 year old house. Debating between one high velocity system or two conventional systems.



We have 100 amp service with an electric dryer, stove and oven. Water and heat is gas.



The HVAC contractor told me that he spoke with the electrician who assured him that we would not need to upgrade service but add in a sub-panel.



Any thoughts?



What are the risks of staying with current electrical service and adding A/C? What are the risks of upgrading to 200 amp with such old wiring? Is one high velocity system better than two conventional systems?



Note I am cross posting based on another question I had in the HVAC forum.



Thank you in advance for all your help.
      

I am installing a new semi flush 200a meter/breaker panel. the neutral meter lug is bonded to the panel, and comes into the breaker side to a common bus. There is no ground bus bar

Q- do i need to install a separate ground bus for my circuit ground(s) and ground rod, and if so, do they need to be bonded together? or can i just use the common bus for all grounds and commons if there is adequate space?
      

I have a grounding question.  I am installing 400a service to my new home.  We ran 350MCM wire underground thru 3" conduit from the 2ndary terminal (moped) to the house into a 320A Cooper B-Line meter.  From the meter we ran 2 sets of 4/0-4/0-2/0 thru the wall to 2-200a breaker panels ("standard practice", according to my electrical supplier).  The ground wire (#4Cu bare) from the grounding rods comes up from the ground and we're curious if there has to be a special splice connecting the ground wire to each breaker panel or can we run thru one breaker panel to then next, say by connecting the ground wire to a ground bus on one panel and running that thru to the next with #4Cu bare or #6Cu in conductor.  Different electricians are suggesting different methods and the electrical inspector is unsure, but seems to be leaning towards the "special splice". Any feedback would be appreciated.
      

We are just beginning to start with our kitchen remodel. Today, I mapped out all the circuits and this is what I found.



Circuit # 7 - 20 amp circuit to 1 back splash outlet then to 3 kitchen wall outlets, then to a closet outlet and closet ceiling light and then to a side  porch light!



Circuit # 8 - 20 amp to Dishwasher and Disposal



Circuit # 9 - 20 amp circuit to microwave and kitchen ceiling lights. 2 patio recessed lights and dining room ceiling light.



Circuit # 12 - 20 amp circuit to another back splash outlet then to 2 dining room wall outlets.



Circuit # 14 - 20 amp to Refrigerator only



Circuit # 18 - 15 amp to GFCI outlet in garage then that feeds 3 outlets for 3 bathroom outlets and 1 outside patio outlet.



I going to have to add 1 more back splash outlet due to increase in counter space. I'll put the microwave on a dedicated circuit. So I need 2 additional breakers but I only have 1 blank spot in the breaker panel. I guess I can add one of those slim tandem breakers.



So my question, is it ok to have additional wall outlets on the same circuit as a back splash outlet?  If it's ok I'll lighten up circuit # 7 by putting some of those wall outlets on the additional back splash outlet.

Oh, I have 2 20 amp circuits I did not get identified yet! I'll get to those tomorrow.



thanks!