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Questions About 100-200a Service Upgrade

I'm having quite the time finding an electrician who will quote this. Just about all of them say that what I need is to upgrade my main panel but I want to install a new main panel that is a part of the meter base outside and make my current 100A panel a sub. Maybe you people can tell me why nobody seems to want to do this. Here are a few shots of the existing meter (note what is apparently a 60A base here)

and a shot of the conduit headed underground. Like most homes built during this era, the conduit makes a right turn underground to enter through the cinderblock, ending up coming into the back of the main panel. This conduit encloses a 4 wire feed. edit: no, actually it is only a 3 wire feed which is a problem if I want to convert the original main panel a sub.

Here's the existing panel. It's a 60's era Square-D split panel with a 30 amp sub panel for the finished basement. Those are low voltage wires to circuit taps for my home energy monitoring system btw.

The reason I don't want to upgrade this panel are as follows:

We won't be expanding the electrical west of this panel any more. All planned expansion (240v car charger in Garage, planned 3 season room with grid tie Solar on the roof) will be to the east.

Upgrading the panel will require major surgery to the walls. Due to the way the original basement is engineered there, the walls have an intricate stud pattern behind the existing panel. I'd pretty much have to rip out a 4' section and redo it to make the access large enough to handle a 200A panel.

Adding additional circuits to an upgraded panel will require an act of God due to the finished basement construction. There are no raceways for additional circuits.

Based on this, my thoughts were to create a new 200A main panel outside based on something like the GE model TSM420CSCUP loadcenter. Here's a shot of this panel:

This particular panel has room for three 2-pole breakers in addition to the 200A mains. I'd add a 100A 2-pole breaker for the existing panel, with the other two reserved for the garage/solar expansions.

The issue with the contractors who have quoted the job appears to be the conduit going to the existing panel. I'm not sure what's wrong with it but it is apparently not compliant with current code. Obviously the bonding needs to change, new grounding electrodes need to be driven, and a water pipe ground needs to be established to the new main panel, but what else is required?

I'd like to throughly research all the code considerations here so I can approach a contractor from a more knowledgable perspective then determine the best way to perform this upgrade. Due to POCO coordination and the need to cut household power for the duration of the job, I have no desire to DIY this one...

So what exactly is wrong with the conduit running from the existing meter base to the existing load center? Why is everybody telling me that I can't do essentially what I've described above? What are the relevant code sections that will apply to this job? Should I be chatting with my AHJ about local considerations now or should I wait until I have the code requirements down pat (assuming the latter here)?

Se Upgrade From 200 To 340 Amp And Second Mbp

My existing service entrance consists of an external Meter can mounted on the outside of the garage wall directly behind a SD Main Breaker Panel (MBP) with a 150 amp main breaker. In order to support upgrades, I am installing a second MBP (200 amp) inside the garage in the wall cavity right next to the existing panel.

Local code requires that the upgraded Meter can be purchased from the City Utility. I have already confirmed with the local inspector that either 4/0 Al or 2/0 Cu SE cable are acceptable for both the existing and new MBP.

My question is what is the code requirement for getting the 3 SE cables run from the dual lugs to the new panel? Can those conductors run into the same wall cavity where the existing panel is installed? If so, I'm certain they can't go through the same conduit nipple that connects the back of the meter can to the existing MBP. Can they route in behind/above/below the existing panel and through a hole in the wall stud to gain access to the adjacent stud bay to get to the new panel? If not, do they need to be routed out of the meter can on the external wall in conduit over to the next stud bay and then enter the wall there to gain access to the new panel? If external conduit is required I would expect it must be metallic as opposed to PVC.

Best Regards,

Ted

2oo Amp Service With Existing 125amp Panel

In a large bunkhouse we need to add a second range, water heater, and kitchen outlets. The existing panel is 125 AMP (with breaker), and don't want to redo entire panel. A consultant said to install a 200 AMP drop, with a panel to handle the additional load. Would you then feed each of the panels from that drop as main panels, or use a new 200 AMP panel as the main, and the 125 as a sub-panel from that? I assume in either instance, the grounding would be done as a 200 AMP service. Just realized if each was a main panel, the new one couldn't exceed 75 Amps, or total would be over 200. Any other ideas appreciated.

Upgrade Svc., Overhead; Bill Vs. Estimate Question

Appreciate any help with this.

Background:

- new to us old house, got three quotes for an upgrade to 200A service plus addition of three new circuits in conduit with receptacles (Chicago area, conduit is code in just about every town around, I have no issue with that);

- existing service to house was overhead, opted to keep it overhead and not bury it;

- the quote says, exactly: "Installation of a 200 amp 240 volt overhead electric service complete with riser, outdoor meter socket with a 200 amp disconnect, 40 position circuit breaker type distribution panel..." etc.;

I understood from discussing the work with the contractor we chose that install overhead service meant to include the work and materials needed to upgrade the line coming from the pole at the alley to the house to handle 200A capacity; paid 50% down on quote;

- the morning the boss and tech show up for the work, boss says we already have a 200A overhead, which I seem to recall the home inspector mentioning months ago before the closing (makes sense because the overhead runs to a single room addition put on several years ago), but boss was the guy who came to the house to quote the job in the first place, didn't mention anything about the existing overhead capacity at the time;

- the work gets done, seems fine; tech left without going over anything with us but whatever.

Final bill matches the quote to the dollar. There is no indication that there were any surprises during the work.

Since the quote says installation of overhead service and they didn't need to replace the overhead lines from the pole I think the final bill should be lower than the quote. The distance from the pole to the riser is about 40 feet.

Should I expect from the wording in the quote that the final bill should be lower than the quote because they didn't have to touch the existing overhead?

About how much lower?

We didn't go with the lowest quote, didn't beat him up on price and the total bill is quite a pretty penny, so I think he would be making good money either way.

I know there is no way for someone to tell me an exact dollar figure here based on a blog post, but I'd like to get some kind of idea so I can start my conversation about the final bill.

Thanks for any help out there.

200 Amp Panel

Hello All,

First post, working on a complete bare-stud remodel of my home, so I will try to be descriptive enough. I have a 150 Amp service to the house (which I might upgrade later) with a meter socket and breakers outside. I am running into the house (more than 10') to a 125 Amp 20 space ML. I have too many 15 and 20 Amp circuits now for the panel and need to change it out. The house is rather sprawling, so the rather than tie rooms together in a confusing way, I broke the circuits down per minimum requirements... almost none of them are near capacity. I am going to run the big stuff back out to the exterior panel/service however I still need more space in my interior panel. What I REALLY need is just a 40 circuit 125 Amp GE panel but I don't think those exist because (guessing) *most* 40 circuit scenarios need more amps.

What I wanted to do was upgrade to a 40 space panel (only been able to find a 200-Amp). I realize I am still limited outside by the service and have already run 4/0 aluminum. I know I am not going to go anywhere near the 200 Amp capacity, I just need the space. Is this ok? Any reason I shouldn't use a 200 Amp MB panel?

Thanks!

Hot Water & Cook Top Wiring Questions

Hello All,

I'm about to "re-locate" some existing breakers and wires into a subpanel and have a few questions.

1) My existing hot water heater is wired with 2 conductor w/ground wiring (30 amp, #10 wire). Is this still Code compliant or do you have to have 3 conductor now as with dryers?

My existing dryer also has 2 conductor w/ground wiring (installed in 1999).

If I relocated it or the hot water wires/breakers to my new subpanel will they require me to upgrade to current code (3 conductor, if applicable)? The subpanel will attach to the Main Load Center which is where those breakers/wires are currently attached.

Main question is will I be grandfathered with existing wiring in only relocating the breakers/wires to subpanel? I'm not relocating the appliances or recepticles themselves.

2) I have 3 conductor w/ground wires for my cook top. It only requires 2 conducter w/ground however. They wired the ground/neutrals together but has flexible metal conduit running to the cook top itself. Should I remove the ground and bond it to the metal conduit?

Thanks, Ralph

Romex On Basement Wall To Panel

I want to run Romex from a j-box, that is in the ceiling of my basement, to the main panel. I know that I can run Romex from the box along the face of the joist (not the bottom), but what are my options once the Romex gets to the wall? The joist I am using, conveniently enough, meets the wall ideally for where the panel is. However, I've read that I need to run the Romex through EMT, or some form of conduit.

If you look at the picture I've attached, the panel is mounted on a piece of plywood that extends out underneath the joist. Can I just staple the Romex to the plywood and then run it into the panel without using any conduit? The cast iron pipe makes using any conduit quite a problem.

The cable you see is MC Lite, but I want to replace it with Romex. There are going to be up to 9 more lines coming into the panel this very way.

Code Requirements For Adding New Circuits

I will be pulling from the breaker panel new 12/2 romex for a kitchen microwave and a 20 amp circuit, 12/2 for the garage. I might also pull some extra wire for a future add on room and to divide up existing circuits to avoid overloads in the future. I am snaking these cables through existing sheetrock ceilings and walls. Are there any code requirements about snaking through existing walls and ceilings other than drilling holes 2" from the face of a stud or beam?

Workshop Sub-panel In Barn

Greetings,

I am looking to wire a sub-panel in my barn to support a general workshop. Loads would include standard woodworking tools (including 220V table saw), welding, air compressor, etc.

The house has 200AMP main breaker and minimal in-house loads. Dryer is gas, Oven and cooktop are gas. Water heater is off the oil furnace. I think the biggest single load is the well-pump and/or fridge compressor. We do have sporadic toaster oven, hairdryers etc. Otherwise its just lights, ceiling fans, flat-panel tv, stereo...

We had 4" conduit installed to the barn, so there is plenty of room to pull a big cable. The entire run from the house panel to the barn totals around 155' (probably less, but rounding up)

My questions a

Can I pull a 100AMP sub-panel from my main house panel as described?

Would 4/0,4/0,4/0,2/0 aluminum service entrance cable be a good choice for this run? Could I do it with something lighter?

Could I put an additional sub-panel in the garage (about halfway to the barn) by interrupting the run? The garage subpanel would have a 220V plug for possible welding and/or electric car charging. Would this require a separate run?

Are there any other considerations I should be thinking about in planning this?

Thanks for any thoughts you can share on this!

Cheers,

pete

New Meter Base And Panel, Wire Size

I have read and searched a bunch on wire size and I wondered if you guys could confirm that #2/0 copper is fine to run from the meter base to the panel. Upgrading to 200 amp service, 200 amp base and 200 amp panel. From what I gather its ok for service wires at 200 amps, but in other applications its rated for less. For what its worth, the poco is running #4/0 to the the meter for the new service.

Modify A Breaker Panel Cover.

I am replacing a feed through breaker panel the bus bar and breaker was inverted but the main breaker is up and down with on being down and I also noticed that the plastic in the back that holds the bus bar is cracked.

I bought a newer model from the same manufacture that has a much better design and a better main breaker. But unlike the one I already have when you invert it the breaker slots don't line up and cover does not fit properly.

I was thinking about just cutting out the center where the breaker slots are. I measured and if I cut it just right all I have to do is turn it over and it will line up just have to bolt or weld it in place. Would this be legal

I also thought about putting the panel the way it came and feeding the bus bar hot and keeping the panel under the 6 throw rule. Or would that not work because I am using feed through. There will be 4 double pole breakers and the one main that feeds a sub panel.

I really hate the cheap design of this panel.

I plan to replace it with this.